By englishfan (195.93.48.7) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 04:59 pm:| By englishfan (195.93.48.7) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 04:59 pm: |
B4 I start I don't want fans to get upset by this.
I watched the miniseries, read the book and bought many other books that Mr Ambrose wrote. I cried on many occations at the sacrifice these young men made. I am eternally greatfull that I live in a free western, liberal democracy because of these sacrifices. I'm gay and fully appreciate where this would have taken me if I didn't live in such enlightened times.
I would like to express two opinions.
1. Easy company was only one company of one battalion of one regiment of one division of one one army. There were many army groups that fought and EVERY person who fought is a hero.
2. A good book was well adapted into a great miniseries. The names of E Co, 506 PIR are familliar to millions and their heroism should be used to evoke the heroism of millions who played their role. I read a book about Vietnam called 'We were soldiers once ... and young' this was poorly adapted for the screen and a bad film means that the hero's names will not so readilly trickle of the tongue.
In conclusion I in no way denigrate the achievements of all those involved in the making of BoB but I ask you all not to forget all those who fought to provide us all with the democratic freedoms we so easilly take for granted.
With the setting of the sun we will remember them.
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (62.7.88.160) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 06:34 pm: |
Here, here.
Your sentiments are entirely correct. If you remember Wild Bill's comments in the final episode, "I'm just a little part...".
Regards, Jonathan.
| By homefront41 (Homefront41) (198.81.26.142) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 06:53 pm: |
EnglishFan: The actual history fans among the contributors here have read extensively of WWII and other wars and knew more names that can be kept in one's memory. There are heroes all over the place and can easily be found if people will crack a history book or two. No argument there. BK
| By homefront41 (Homefront41) (198.81.26.142) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 07:05 pm: |
Here's a reading list (both fiction and non-fiction) for some of our young friends:
Sir Basil Liddell Hart, any work
Martin Gilbert, any work
The official US Army history of World War II, multiple volumes, by the Center for Military History (Cross-Channel Attack covers D-Day, The Ardennes, Battle of the Bulge touches on the 101st, and Siegfied Line Campaign)
John Keegan, any work
Paul Fussell, any work
D-Day, Pegasus Bridge, Citizen Soldiers: Stephen E. Ambrose
On to Berlin: Gen. James Gavin
The Greatest Generation: Brokaw, Tom
The Story of a Soldier, 1940-1971-The Airborne Spirit and Recollections of Colonel Edward S. Mehosky (Ret.), U.S. Army, Infantry by Ivan Paul Mehosky
War Letters
Currahee, The Road to Arnhem and Seven Roads to Hell, Beyond the Rhine: Donald Burgett (A506th)
The Battered Bastards of Bastogne: George Koskimaki (A506th)
101st Airborne, The Screaming Eagles at Normandy: Mark Bando
A Bridge Too Far: Cornelius Ryan
Parachute Infantry: David Kenyon Webster
Cpl Forrest Guth: E Company 506th PIR Band of Brothers (WWII American Paratroopers Portrait Series) by Michel De Trez (due out 5/02)
A Walk in the Sun: Harry Brown
A Time for Trumpets: Charles McDonald
Trail of the Fox
Flags Of Our Fathers: James Bradley
Ghost Soldiers: by Hampton Sides
Silent Warriors: L.Q.Zedric (about the Alamo Scouts)
The Deadly Brotherhood, the American Combat Soldier in World War II: McManus
The Men of Company K: Campbell
Company Commander: Charles MacDonald
Winged Victory: Geoffrey Perrett
There's A War to Be Won: Perrett
A Dark and Bloody Ground: Miller
The Bloody Forest: Gerald Astor
A Blood Dimmed Tide: Gerald Astor
Battle of the Huertgen Forest: Charles Whiting
Those Devils in Baggy Pants: C/504th Ross Carter
The GI Offensive in Europe, the Triumph of American Infantry Divisions 1941-1945: Mansoor
Death Traps: Belton Cooper
Messengers of The Lost Battalion: by Greg Orfalea
The Better Angels, Robert A. Mills
War of the Rats
Beyond Valor, Patrick K. O’Donnell
The Invisible Soldier: The Experience of the Black Soldier in WWII, Mary Penick Motley
Night Drop, S.L.A. Marshall
Goodbye Darkness: William Manchester
Iwo Jima: Bill Ross
Riflemen: On the Cutting Edge of World War II: Earl Reitan
Dance of Death
If You Survive, by George Wilson
Patton, A Genius for War
History Goes To the Movies by Joseph Roquemore (1999)
The Americans at War
Life - World War 2: History's Greatest Conflict in Pictures
Between War and Peace
The Seed And The Sower: Sir Laurens Van Der Post
The Man Called Intrepid: Sir William Stephenson
Japan’s Secret War
Between War and Peace
The Wings of Morning: Thomas Childers
No Guts, No Glory: Boots Blessee
Soldier of Orange
Between Silk and Cyanide: Leo Marks
Erich Hartman: The Blond Knight of Germany
Is Paris Burning?: Collins & LaPierre
A Town Like Alice: Neville Shute
A War To Be Won: Murray and Millett
Summer Of My German Soldier
Holocaust
Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust -- by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen
The German Army and Genocide: Crimes Against War Prisoners, Jews, and other Civilians in the East, 1939-1944 by Scott Abbott (Translator), Hamburg Institute (Editor), Omer Bartov, Hamburg Institute
The Beast Reawakens: Fascism's Resurgence from Hitler's Spymasters to Today's Neo-Nazi Groups and Right-Wing Extremists by Martin A. Lee
In Evidence: Poems, etc. Barbara Helffgott Hyett
Survival in Auschwitz: Primo Levi
The Informed Heart: Bruno Bettelheim (camp survivor’s memoir/reflection on the meaning of the camps
Night: Elie Wiesel
Other Losses: James Bacque
With Wallenberg in Budapest: Per Anger
Righteous Gentile: John Bierman
Seven Hells: Ted Stabholz
Guard of Honor" by James Gould Cozzens. and an extraordinary book set on the home front in Ocanara Air Base, and full of American racism, the novel that Noel Perrin calls the best about WWII
Two women (book as well as movie) on the Italians
Zuccotti, "The Italians and the Holocaust"
On the Dutch, besides Anne Frank and the wonderful more recent book about her by Miep Gies, two heartwrenching accounts by Prof Jacob Presser, the novel "Breaking Point" and the history "Ashes in the wind: the destruction of the Dutch Jews".
Hope this helps. BK
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (62.7.6.250) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 07:00 am: |
I think that you might have created the basis for a new thread, there. How about a thread for reccommended publications on these topics? That way, a good book or magazine article could reach a wider audience.
Regards, Jonathan.
| By Bill Kynoch (199.44.18.247) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 07:44 pm: |
My father was a WWII hero. I know that because he was kia in Northern Italy on April 14, 1945. And like many of the men in Easy Co. said, they aren't the heroes. The heroes are the ones who never came back. My dad was in the 10th Mountain Division, another elite force which didn't have nearly the amount of combat of the 506th.
I have read extensively on WWII and watched, I think, every movie I know of about it. The BoB is without a doubt the best cinematic presentation of the war ever presented. I've watched it 4 times and am now on my 5th. I've also bought it for my kids and told them to watch it with the thought in mind that their grandfather endured the same experiences as the men in BoB.
I think it's great that so many young people got interested in WWII through this series and now have a better understanding of what men in combat went through, no matter what the war.
This is a great site. The best I've found on BoB. Anyone who fought in a war is my hero.
| By Michael Wisotzkey (Afireinside) (24.171.107.160) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 08:45 pm: |
Band of Brothers is based on Easy Company which had a great story to tell. Since Easy Company was the hardest taught in the 101st, Mr. Ambrose chose to write about them
| By Marigold Papa (Marigold) (203.160.183.79) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 09:49 pm: |
Welcome Bill and yes, your father was a hero.
BoB has changed so many lives and it is indeed such a great miniseries. Mr. Ambrose, Spielberg, and Hanks have outdone themselves 
gold
| By yvette thomas (Bettyb) (194.117.133.182) on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 12:25 pm: |
I've seen "we were soldiers", and it is indeed a terrible film, which is a shame cos the people who made it obviously didn't care too much about the people they were portraying and their memories and more about making money at the box office.
the difference with BoB, is that Tom and Steven CARED passionatley about this, about respecting the families and people who are being portrayed, and the actors themselves rlised that these wre REAL people. I think the added bonus of using realatively unknown also worked to their advantage, as you could relate to them more, and the character was more believable instead of "there's so-and-so from...".
Anothher fave is Platoon, as that is very realistic, and is the best 'Nam film of all time.
| By Marigold Papa (Marigold) (203.160.183.79) on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 10:41 pm: |
I have difficulty remebering which is which between "platoon" and "platoon leader", remind me please?
gold
| By yvette thomas (Bettyb) (194.117.133.182) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 11:41 am: |
Platoon, stars Charlie Sheen and Willem Defoe, and has Barbers Adagio for Strings, when Defoe is betrayed by Tom berenger and left for dead, but can be seen running from the VC, whilst the others are in the helicopter above. that scene always brings tears to my eyes.
As for Platoon Leader, i'm sorry but i've never heard of it?
yvette
| By Chris Saunders (Space_Cowboy) (195.92.194.14) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:23 pm: |
According to the IMDB, Platoon Leader was made two years after Platoon. The main difference is that the story focuses on a green west point lieutenant who takes command of a platoon under difficult circumstances. Plus the fact that one film is a critically aclaimed work of art, mentioned in many greatest film lists, stars Charlie Sheen & Willem Defoe and gained $137.963m in total at the box office while the other only made $1.348m, contains D-list celebrities and no-one's ever heard of.
No prizes for guessing which is which.
Chris
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (62.7.111.105) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:52 pm: |
Tom Berenger in "Platoon" plays a staff sergeant, who pops Dafoe, correct?
Folks may find this hard to stomach but I have a friend who's an ex-Brit para who currently serves in the Special Air Service (this is no ****) who has a rather "hardened" attitude to life.
One of his fictional heroes is Berenger's character in "Platoon". His rather "trained" philosophy has no time for mavericks or heroes and he reckons that Berenger's character was more believable than Defoe's and the former did everyone a favour (under the supposed circumstances) by shooting the latter.
My friend also wishes to meet all the authors of the "Bravo Two Zero" affair of the Gulf War. He would like to get Asher, McNab and Ryan and "sort them out" for misrepresenting the SAS. Apparantly, the regiment doesn't think much of these three guys for what they've written in their books.
Sorry if this has not made much sense or if you don't agree with the sentiments. I just thought that folks might want to know the attitude of a seriously real pro, that's all.
Regards, Jonathan.
| By yvette thomas (Bettyb) (194.117.133.182) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 06:22 pm: |
Jonathan-i wouldn't like to meet your friend on a dark night!
i suppose in one respect they've kinda betrayed all that they stood for whilst in the army, maybe that's why he wants to sort them out?
i was talking about "i wonder if anyone would shoot someone in their company if they thought it would be of more benefit to them", last night to some friends, after BoB, as they wished it of Sobel/Dike, and if in the cross-fire they were "accidently" hit, it's not like they CSI people there-and they coulda got away with it....i wonder if it ever happened?
| By Chris Saunders (Space_Cowboy) (195.92.168.173) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 07:26 pm: |
John,
There was a program on BBC2 last night about the Iranian Embassy siege. During the program they interviewed the SAS team involved and they also have a similar attitude. When questioned about Thatcher's orders to stop the problem from escalating any further, they all knew that this meant that the hostage takers had to be killed and carried this out to the letter. When one soldier was questioned on whether he felt regret for killing an unarmed terrorist, he answered a simple no, that it was his job, he could have had more weapons on him and he had no time to worry about whether one terrorist was more dangerous than another.
Another incident I picked up was when one of the hostages was on the balcony and kept on lifting his head up to see what was happening, despite the police telling him to keep his head down. Eventually, an SAS soldier shouted to him that if he looked up again he would shoot him. He kept his head down from then on.
I suppose your friends hardened attitude comes with the job as it allows them to function to the best of their ability. That's why their the best in the business.
Chris
| By Michael Wisotzkey (Afireinside) (24.171.107.160) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:38 pm: |
http://www.geocities.com/warmoviedatabase/
Everyone go to that site. Its a GREAT place if your intrested in renting/buying some other good movies. It comes complete with reviews. Every war has its own part on the site.
*Late 20th Century
*Vietnam
*Cold War
*Korean War
*World War II
*World War I
*Civil War
*19th Century
*Pre 19th Century
This is where I go before a trip the the video store!
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (213.122.224.36) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 07:06 pm: |
Cheers for that, Chris.
I know of a certain outfit that would contest the "best in the business" label, though. A more covert outfit that goes by the letters of S.B.S.
There's great rivalry there, but there's talk of amalgumating the two units into one. So who knows?
Yvette, apparantly the above "authors" who've cashed in on their SAS credibility have not exactly told the truth and have gone so far as to ramanticise the whole "Bravo Two Zero" thing.
I've talked to my friend tonight and he's laughed at what I've posted here. He's not too sure about you not wanting to meet him on a dark night, though. He says it depends on if you're married or not? Personally, I don't understand these things........
Regards, Jonathan.
| By Michael Wisotzkey (Afireinside) (24.171.107.160) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 09:43 pm: |
Germans..they need a movie that focuses on German troops in Europe. You barely see any way the German soldiers had it in war movies. That would be neat to see how their living conditions were compared to the Americans in Europe.
| By yvette thomas (Bettyb) (194.117.133.182) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 11:44 am: |
Jonathan...i'm not THAT type of woman!, y'know, one who goes out walking at night to meet strange men for tea and crumpets.
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (213.123.50.146) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 05:30 pm: |
Hiya Michael,
Try "Stalingrad" (German, but subtitled)and the much-loved "Cross of Iron". Those should whet your appetites. However, for critical acclaim, you can't go wrong with "Das Boot" - superb.
Yvette? How come you knew that my friend drank tea (two sugars)? Now, THAT'S scarey.
Regards, Jonathan.
| By Michael Wisotzkey (Afireinside) (24.171.107.160) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 05:42 pm: |
You guys are so silly.
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (213.122.255.159) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:58 pm: |
Never let it be said that folks around here take themselves too seriously. I'm off to polish the family Akidna now......
Jonafan.
| By Marigold Papa (Marigold) (203.160.183.79) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 11:09 pm: |
there goes the silly jon! :P
gold
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (62.7.22.205) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 07:20 am: |
Hey! I COULD have an Akidna. If I DID, I'm sure it would be taxed and airworthy.
Oops! Let the guard down, there. Quick, someone post something real serious on this board so I can go back to being serious.
Jonathan.
| By Newer_English_Fan (195.93.48.7) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 06:43 pm: |
Still luv the site but a bit concerned that people can't tel the difference between fact and fiction. It is possible and correct for us to disect the the acting, directing etc but only for the purpose of trying to work out what the writer director was trying to get across. It is no use trying to deconstruct the miniseries and use this for evidence of actual events, rather one should take an impression or feeling for the whole. As Ambrose freely admits in Pegasus Bridge even the men who were there didn't remember everything or in the right order of events.
No matter how good the miniseries(and boy it was a doosie)it's only based on fact not everything u see it the truth the whooe truth and nothing but the truth.
| By yvette thomas (Bettyb) (194.117.133.182) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 01:18 pm: |
hello! i just finished reading the book last night, and noticed that certain events and people had their experiences changed in the mini series-i suppose it made for better viewing, and some of the people in the book were left out anyway.
read about the "supposed" incident where Speirs was gonna shoot the bloke who shot Grant, but if you read the book, it says that someone else was actually ready to pull the trigger-not Speirs, who had second thoughts.
Saw the piccie of Speirs, and he was a very handsome blokey (matthew settle did kinda look like him-except better, but i still woulda gone for Speirs back then, probably cos he loadsa choccie bars too!), tis a shame what happened to him with regards to his "wife" and son, but overall i think he came across as a very nice chap, and an excellent soldier.
mrs yvette settle
| By Iines (Iines) (195.197.127.49) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:18 pm: |
Yvette,
Yes, some things in the book are different...but i think it doesnt matter really, when it's about so little things.
You're right, Matthew and Speirs recemblace each others
I bought the book long time ago, but i have read only half of it, i'm so slow:/ I must all the time look words from english-finnish dictionary, there are so much these army terms in it.
Iines (Lewis;))
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (213.122.237.76) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 07:59 pm: |
Regarding recollecting certain events? There are so many factors against a researcher being able to put together a true and accurate narrative of such traumatic moments that it's almost impossible.
Does anyone believe that even a general (who should be blessed with the best overview) really knows what's going on out there in the field? Or even intelligence officers for that matter?
Regards, Jonathan.
| By Jackie McConlogue (Jackiem) (64.252.170.142) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:40 am: |
Thank you for the extensive list of books...i hope to at least tackle a few of the many you mentioned. RIght now i am reading Foot Soilers by Roscoe Blunt Jr. who was in the 84th Infantry and was a detected mined in an anti-tank outfit. it is quite intersting but almost an 180 degree turn from BOB. This man hates the army and has not mentioned the name of one buddy in the war. if anything i hope to bring myself to a wider scope of WWII and understand that it wasn't all elite and comraderie.
Take Care
Jackie
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (62.7.85.98) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 06:33 pm: |
Correct, it wasn't all elite or comraderie. It never is. However, elite are for (hopefully) specialists and comraderie is for team spirit. If your guy is working on detecting mines then that's kind of specialist in my book, and downright risky! He may not have wanted to make friends to avoid the potential hurt of losing them.
On the other hand he might have been a thoroughly miserable person too wrapped up in his own self-pity to care. It takes two to tango and as much as he didn't have friends, perhaps others around him didn't want to be friends with him, either.
Makes you think.
Jonathan.
| By steve lundy (Breechblock) (216.209.116.94) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:30 pm: |
Hi everyone,
I have noticed something about the battle for Bastogne in that it is somewhat similar to Gettysburg PA. There are so many roads leading to it with the town in the middle.
Has anyone else noticed this??
Hope everyone is well,
Steve L.
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (213.1.202.133) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 04:00 pm: |
Hey, in the case of Bastogne and Gettysburg, I've never thought of it like that. I bet there have been many built up areas around the globe that had wished that they hadn't been designated of strategic importance when a war caught up with them. Our friends in Holland could vouch for that, I'm sure!
Regards, Jonathan.
| By Jocelyn (Jocey) (143.235.51.67) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:58 pm: |
i know it's not ww2 but a great book about soldiers in Vietnam is "The Things They Carried" it's amazing. It's by Tim O'Brien.
Currahee
Jocey
| By Matt Holtmann (Matt) (65.69.85.185) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:57 am: |
Here's a movie that they NEED to make. A movie about Rosie the Riviter ( I don't count that movie Swing Shift. Nothing personal, but I hated it.) Those were the women that made it possible for the men to continue fighting and win the war. They deserve more credit than they get, in my opinion.
| By Jonathan Jones (Jonjones) (81.131.162.156) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 10:21 am: |
The women who worked for the war effort certainly do deserve more recognition, Matt. Here in the UK they're still raising funds for a memorial to those women who lost their lives in the armed forces, never mind those who worked in the factories or in the fields.
Jonathan.
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