By Admin (Admin) (65.80.157.101) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 12:43 pm:| By Admin (Admin) (65.80.157.101) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 12:43 pm: |
. We have all heard the haunting song, "Taps." It's the song that gives us that lump in our throats and usually creates tears in our eyes. But, do you know the story behind the song? If not, I think you will be pleased about it's humble beginnings.
Reportedly, it all began in 1862 during the Civil War, when Union Army Captain Robert Ellicombe was with his men near Harrison's Landing in Virginia. The Confederate Army was on the other side of the narrow strip of land. During the night, Captain Ellicombe heard moans of a soldier who lay severely wounded on the field. Not knowing if it was a Union or Confederate solder, the Captain decided to risk his life and bring the stricken man back for medical attention. Crawling on his stomach through the gunfire, the Captain reached the stricken soldier and began pulling him toward his encampment. When the Captain finally reached his own lines, he discovered it was actually a Confederate soldier, but the soldier was dead. The Captain lit a lantern and suddenly caught his breath and went numb with shock. In the dim light, he saw the face of the soldier. It was his own son. The boy had been studying music in the South when the war broke out. Without telling his father, the boy enlisted in the Confederate Army.
The following morning, heartbroken, the father asked permission of his superiors to give his son a full military burial despite his enemy status. His request was only partially granted. The Captain had asked if he could have a group of Army band members play a funeral dirge for his son at the funeral. The request was turned down since the solder was Confederate.
But, out of respect to the father, they did say they could give him only one musician. The Captain chose a bugler. He asked the bugler to play a series of musical notes he had found on a piece of paper in the pocket of the dead youth's uniform. This wish was granted.
The haunting melody, we now know as "Taps" used at military funerals, was born.
Day is done
Gone the sun
From the lakes
From the hills
From the sky.
All is well,
Safely rest.
God is nigh.
Fading light,
Dims the sight
And a star
Gems the sky,
Gleaming bright
From afar,
Drawing nigh,
Falls the night.
Thanks and praise,
For our days,
Neath the sun,
Neath the the sky,
As we go,
This we know,
God is nigh.
God is nigh.
LongJohn
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 05:26 pm: |
Derek and Chris
Very many thanks for today's postings. I especially appreciated the one above about "Taps" and the translation of the German Officer's speech.
Is "Taps" available on the web anywhere as a recording?
Also, almost the last visual in the opening scenes of the series is a soldier, helmetless, blood streaming down his face, held protectively by another, a medic I think, whom I took to be 'Doc' Roe. Who is actually in this visual?
Regards
Alan O'Reilly
North Yorkshire
| By Chris Langlois (Chrisdfw) (12.239.86.117) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 12:24 pm: |
Alan,
Try: http://dir.yahoo.com/Government/U_S__Government/Military/Music/Taps/
There is quite a bit of info there.
Chris
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 12:55 pm: |
Chris
Very many thanks for this posting. Interested readers can listen to "Taps" on
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.org/ceremonies/originoftaps.html
Best regards
Alan
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (131.174.244.2) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 02:25 pm: |
alan, it is Joe Liebgott (my hero 
) protecting Edward Tipper!
Tipper did survive.
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 04:34 pm: |
Irene
Very many thanks for this posting - most helpful!
Joe Liebgott's most difficult moment came, I think, when he had to order the inmates back inside the camp. It preyed greatly on his mind, as Episode 10 showed and must have taken years to overcome.
Best regards
Alan
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (131.174.221.8) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 02:24 am: |
hi there alan
yep i totally agree with you on lieb's difficult moment. great performance from ross mccall if you ask me. it must have been difficult for him not being able to contact vet. Liebgott about this scene and the series as a whole. when i read about all the other actors keeping in contact with the men they portrayed, i realise it is just the saddest thing old Joe Liebgott went 'missing' after WW2. i'd really like to know what exactly happened to him and why he refused to keep in touch with the other 'brothers'...
regards
irene
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 04:46 pm: |
Hi Irene
Thanks for your note. Certainly Ross McCall had a difficult job with everything about his character having to be gleaned second hand, yet I believe he did a very professional job.
One of the other members posted a few details about Liebgott some months back, i.e. he became a barber, not a taxi driver as stated in Episode 10. It should be in the "tree" somewhere!
Best regards
Alan O'Reilly
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (62.251.0.23) on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 03:35 pm: |
hi alan
yes i already read that! i wonder why they made him a cabdriver instead of a barber?! really weird. in the book, you can read he did a fine job giving all the guys' hair in some kind of 'mohican' (misspelled i am sure, sorry i'm not from the US) cut, because he was a barber...
regards
irene
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 04:52 pm: |
Thanks Irene
I guess some unaccountable glitches always get through - e.g. I recall that the late C. Carwood Lipton expressed concern about the level of "language" in parts of the series. "We didn't talk like that" I think he said. The interview is on this site somewhere, I think.
In Joe Liebgott's case the error possibly arose via the difficulty of tracing his dependents within the time available.
Regards
Alan O'R
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (62.251.0.23) on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 04:36 am: |
hi alan
yes i think some slight changes are unevitable. it would be impossible to get everything correct, i guess. it doesn't really matter in my opinion; i still think BoB is the greatest TVseries ever. i didn't remember Lipton saying that 'they didn't talk like that'. maybe he said it in the 'we stand alone together' after-epi or something? that wasn't broadcast over here in Holland! gggrrrr and i am still waiting for the reruns to start too, but i didn't hear of any plans to do that yet. i fear i have to wait until the (late) fall to buy the whole series in the stores...
i don't think the error about Liebgott being a barber not a cabdriver arose via not being able to trace his family. it seems like Ambrose knew he was a barber; the book gets it right. and tom hanks and steven spielberg based their series on that book. so i guess they changed it on purpose, but the logic of that...??
regards,
irene
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 09:33 am: |
Hi Irene
Thanks again for your note. I have copied the excerpt from "An Interview with Carwood Lipton" which can be found on this site via Search:
"JEN: I was told another problem you had with the series is that they used the "F"-word too much.
"LIPTON: You know you're right on that. Not only the "F"-word, but other profanities. We just didn't talk that way. That came later, I guess, in the Vietnam War. In World War II we didn't talk that way. But it was in the Ambrose book as well. I can remember in a certain place there, he says that these young men away from home, quite independent used a lot of profanity (Band of Brothers p. 18), but he was wrong in that. We didn't catch that and we didn't talk to him about leaving that out of the book because it wasn't true. We didn't talk that way. "
I agree with you that there doesn't seem to be any particular logic in making Joe Liebgott a taxi driver. It seems more like an oversight that got through the final proofs, in spite of Hanks and Spielberg having access to the source material etc.
I also agree about the high standard of the series and regret that a sequel does not seem possible - e.g. about the men adjusting to civilian life (there was a very successful film along this theme many years ago entitled "The Best Years of Our Lives". Harold Robbins starred as a veteran who had lost both hands.)
One would think that there could even be scope for following the 506th in later conflicts, e.g. Korea, Vietnam. I think if this was done the right way, it could be good for the USA, w.r.t. re-focussing on national identity, in this age of "globalism". After all, the 1000 year Reich was meant to be a form of "globalism".
Regards
Alan
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (131.174.244.2) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:36 am: |
hi there alan
first of all you don't have to thank me every time i post a reply...;) you're very welcome and i have nothing else to do (exept perhaps for going to college haha LOL).
thank you for the exerpt from the Lipton-interview. so he says they didn't swear that much? mmm than it's too bad Ambrose didn't get that right in his book. it looks like Lipton really wished he didn't write that. the frequent use of the F-word didn't really bother me in the series though. you hear it so much these days i'm kind of getting used to hearing it all the time. also, here in Holland, we might be less strict with our language. that doesn't mean we walk around saying all these filthy words all the time, but in TV-shows and stuff like that such language isn't 'beeped' out (hope you know what i mean).
so you think some sort of BoB-sequel would be a good thing, if they did it properly? mmm i guess it could be interesting but if i'm totally honest; i don't think it is possible to do a better or for that matter evenly good job as they did on BoB. it just is the best series ever. also; i think it attracted so many people around the world because the story is set for an important part in Europe. what i mean is; if a sequel about 506 PIR would involve their business in Vietnam an Korea and all, people over here in europe would be less eager to see it.
also personally, i am interested above all and most in WW2 and not specifically in the Vietnam or Korean war. but i can understand that americans are.
'it could be good for the USA, w.r.t. re-focussing on national identity, in this age of "globalism".'
i must say i was rather surprised to read this from you! i find the way americans think about their country very interesting. do you think most americans want the US to mainly focus on themselves? or do you think there are more people who want to develop the 'globalism'?
i find it really difficult to explain myself properly in english, but what i wanted to say was; america has since WW2 been playing such an important role as sort of a 'world leader' (and i think most americans are rather proud of this, aren't they?) that it is just hard to imagine that in the near future they are mainly going to focus on internal affaires again, and keep themselves from 'interferring' (meant in a good way, i didn't know another word for it) with the rest of the world. i don't think the US is able to do that, either. just look at the way they are involved in the whole Israel-Palestina thing.
again; don't be offended by this it is not meant as such. i just think the americans who say they want the US to re-focus aren't very realistic because they will always want to have a say in things. and they should have a say in those things.
ok i'm going to quit now because i'm getting confused myself...
regards, irene
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 04:54 pm: |
Hi Irene
Hope college is going OK! (I always appreciate it when I get a response to emails and like to say so - guess I'm old fashioned that way.)
I think Mr. Lipton's comment suggested that the dialogue was phrased more like that of Vietnam than WW2. I found this surprising actually but - he was there. (I think the repeated use of the once 'bleeped' expletive suggests a lack of originality more than anything else. There were of course some words in common use 50 years ago, as I remember, that modern audiences are now very sensitive to. 'What goes around comes around', I guess.)
On reflection I agree with your reservations about any follow-up to BoB. Clearly the WW2 setting was of profound interest to those on the Continent and any sequel might thus have limited appeal. By "globalism" I had in mind the kind of centralised dictatorship, which could very easily be 'globalised' now, that 'Easy' fought against and which the men no doubt knew in their heart of hearts was fundamentally wrong.
Regards
Alan
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (131.174.244.2) on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 03:02 am: |
hi alan
yes thank you college is going OK. if i didn't already tell you; i'm in my first year at med-school at the university of nijmegen. the end of the schoolyear is approaching (only 6 more weeks to go) and i can't believe all the changes i've been through the last year. am really enjoying everything right now, though! even the weather is finally improving after all the typical dutch rain we've had over the last few weeks...
i guess Mr. Lipton is right then. i mean when he has also been in Vietnam, he should be able to compare the language used in WW2 and in Vietnam. did it really change so much over the years?
i'm sorry i misunderstood your meaning of the word 'globalism'. of course any kind of centralised dictatorship should be fought against.
mmm, have you heard anything about the elections in Holland? i can't even begin to explain the impact it has over here. of course elections and the results are always being discussed the day after, but everybody is just so amazed at the results that they don't seem able to talk about ANYTHING else.
sadly (in my opinion at least), the people over here are following the european example; it looks like we are going to get a central-right coalition for the next four years. we've had a coalition between D'66 (democrats, who lost half of their seats in the parliament!), PvdA (labour party, who lost 22 of their 45 seats!) and VVD (people's party for freedom and democracy, who lost 15 of 38 seats!) for the last 8 (!) years, and i think with this shift there will be a lot of changes coming up in the following months.
of course, list Pim Fortuyn (which has gone from NOTHING to 26 out of 150 seats in the parliament!) is going to play a big part in that.
i guess i'm just going to watch and see what happens. i'm a little pessimistic about the future of the Netherlands and i certainly don't think our absolutely fine PM Wim Kok (labour party) has deserved such a farewell to politics. he has done a great job which he is not being appreciated for enough by our mostly not-grateful (? not a correct word i'm afraid) people.
ok i have to go now. i've got a class in 15 minutens...
hope to hear from you again soon,
best regards
irene
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 05:17 pm: |
Hi Irene
With your efforts in Med. School, I could understand if 'Doc' Roe was also one of your favourite characters.
I don't think the language has changed all that much - it has just got used more often.
I have visited Njmegen and seen the bridge across the Waal. I was also acquainted with a Grenadier Guards Sergeant Major whose troop of Shermans was first across the bridge on September 20th 1944. I believe he is passed away now. It was his second-in-command who took the troop across. On that same day companies from the 504th PIR of the 82nd Airborne made a forced crossing of the river under heavy fire. These epic events are part of the story of "the divisions up north" as Major Winters referred to them in Episode 4. Bill Croft, the Grenadier whom I knew, also had grim memories of "the Island", Episode 5. (His 2IC, Peter Robinson, is the one mentioned in the books, e.g. "A Bridge Too Far". Robbo was "a right tearaway" I understand, according to Bill.)
I think the present situation in the Europe is ominous. The EU is really the 4th Reich. Hitler's was the 3rd. The effect of WW2 I think was to make everyone abhor "supremacy" but now "equality" is the new tyranny. The Dutch and others in Europe, including Britain, are gradually realising how they have been conned into a new "Reich" by stealth over the last 50 years and this I think indicates why there is a perceptible shift to the right, i.e. nationalist parties. Yet that may simply pave the way for a new "Fuhrer".
An "alternative news" web site that I accessed recently had an open letter to the men of Major Winters' and Joe Liebgott's generation, i.e. the WW2 veterans urging them still to communicate their wisdom and experience of the war years. I would agree with this exhortation.
Hope you had a good class!
Best regards
Alan
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (62.251.0.22) on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 08:11 am: |
hello alan
'With your efforts in Med. School, I could understand if 'Doc' Roe was also one of your favourite characters.'
well yes he was one of my favourites. also i was inspired by the fact that ALL easy-men wanted to be 'the best of the best' and gave so much of themselves in Toccoa and during the whole war, of course. it really makes me wanna try even harder to make something of myself and do my very best in school. sounds a bit like the dreams of a teenager, doens't it? well i can't help it BoB really had an impact on me.
may i ask you your age? sorry if you think i'm rude and surely you don't have to tell me, but i was just wondering; you seem to know so much about the events in WW2... i can't imagine anyone under 40 or so could know all that...
to come to a conclusion on the language-thing; i agree with you that it might not have changed a lot. cursing is now just something kids grow up with, watching too much tv and all.
wow so you have payed Nijmegen a visit? that's nice to hear! it's a small world! i think it is a great city. i have only been living here for a year now (but when i still lived with my parents, i lived not too far from Nijmegen either and already went there on numorous occasions), but it already feels like 'home' to me and i'd like to live there also when i become a doctor.
i live right next to the big 'Keizer Karel'-roundabout. it has been there for ages so maybe you've seen it too. actually, i went to see the bridge over the Waal only yesterday to take some pictures of it!
thank you for your information about Nijmegen in the war. it must have been a weird feeling seeing the episodes set in Holland? i can tell you 'the Island' is still there. a very good friend of mine lives in Arnhem, and when i visit her i go by train and it goes 'straight through' the Island. although i was't there some 57 years ago () i think the area hasn't changed very much. still very flat (which part of Holland isn't?) with some dikes....
although i would never call current Europe 'the 4th reich' (a bit too harsh in my opinion) i do think the word 'ominous' applies. but i try to see things in a bigger perspective; in the sixties and seventies it was all about left-wing politics (i'm not sure what it was like in the States but at least here in Europa it was, or so i learned in my history-classes in high school) and now things are slowly shifting towards the right.
i'd hate for you to think we are going to get an extremely right-wing coalition over here in Holland, because that would be an inaccurate idea. it is not like the whole Le Pen thing in France (who got rejected by 80 % of the French people in the second round, don't forget that), or like the Haider-situation in Austria.
it looks like it's going the be LPF (pim fortuyns list), VVD (people's party for freedom and democracy; who were also in the coalition from the last 8 years) and CDA (christen democratic party). actually the CDA has been in a coalition with other parties from 1914 i believe straight to 1994.
also, LPF has a new frontman. (obviously, since Fortuyn is gone). luckily, they chose one of their more liberal, 'decent' members. he has been the spokes-man for LPF since its foundation.
so although it will (by far) not be my government of choice, things could have been worse. this whole thing is hopefully just a trend. and though i wish it to blow over as soon as possible, that is just the way it is. politics is ever-changing and for it to stay exactly the same for 50 years or so wouldn't be a good thing either.
mmmm equality being the new tyranny, huh? i guess European governments are taking the whole 'ONE strong europe'-thing a bit too far. but you mustn't forget; it also brings us many good things. a better position in the worldmarket, for instance, and the chance to help the smaller, not-so-fortunate countries for instance (like Ireland, Portugal, etc). it is a way of being able to compete with the US (economically and politically seen), which is not a bad thing.
but it is true that we have to be careful about the people leading us. they may not get to much power.
but hey, isn't it true that the most powerful person in the entire world will always be the president of the US?
oh and that website you were talking about sounds great and definately like one i want to go and see?! have you got the url, maybe?
and yes i believe strongly that we have to learn from all the veteran's wisdom. from everyone's wisdom who lived during WW2, for that matter. pretty soon no one from that period will be alive any more, so we better hurry up too! that is also why i think BoB is such an important series; as Richard Speight Jr. (Skip Muck) put it in the 'making of'; 'don't forget! it was so hard! and we did it so you won't have to!'
or something like that, i hope you know what i mean.
that's it for today
regards,
irene vrinte
ps
did i already tell you i'm going to pay the Normandy beaches a visit in July? together with that friend of mine from Arnhem (who is also greatly interested in WW2) i'll take the train from Paris, where we will stay for a week. i hope to visit Carentan and Colleville-sur-Mer and other towns, but i haven't planned the trip exactly so i am open to any suggestions you might have! maybe if you've been to nijmegen you also visited that part of France?
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 01:47 pm: |
Hi Irene
I think BoB has been a good exhortation to all viewers of the series. As the Major has said, "Hang tough". I am 55 actually, so Major Winters is a great inspiration to me. (My office colleague is the one who really knows about WW2 but he won't be getting a PC until he retires, unfortunately - and then he'll probably be majoring on the weather, gardening and walking tours! His father was a medic at Normandy and his uncle was killed at El Alamein, serving with the Buffs, the Royal East Kents.)
I guess you have seen the Njmegen March as well, which is quite an experience.
Although it is many years ago, I have been to Arnhem and spoken to some of the veterans who were there, many of these now having sadly passed away. One, Sergeant Neville Ashley, was in a house on the east side of the bridge, Sept. 17th-19th 1944. The officer in command at the time was Lieutenant John Grayburn, who was awarded a posthumous VC. When they had to evacuate the house because it was on fire, they sheltered under the road bridge behind the concrete supports and were shelled by a tiger tank for 2 hours. Nev remembered bits of the reinforced concrete being blown away from the pillars. The area is all changed now but if you look on the east side of the northern rampart of the bridge, there are holes (or at least one) gouged in the surface that are still visible. Bill Croft and Peter Robinson confirmed that these would have been caused by shrapnel from the battle.
Europe isn't the 4th Reich - yet. It is being set up a different way, i.e. not by Nuremberg style rallies etc., that would be too obvious. You are right that there appear to be some benefits BUT remember the old sci-fi story. A bunch of all-powerful aliens landed on earth and pledged "To Serve Man" according to their charter which they displayed world-wide. Everything was fine until one intrepid character (a bit like the Major, or Liebgott etc.) did some investigation and found that the "charter" was a cook book! (Feel free to contact me OL if you have any other q's about the EU. Re: the president of the US, it depends upon whom he sees himself accountable to, the US Constitution and John Q. Citizen...or someone (something) else... If the Major was president, our cousins over there could rest easy but...)
The URL you requested is as follows. The first is the home page. The second accesses the actual letter. I would recommend the letter to everyone who visits this site.
http://www.rense.com/
http://www.rense.com/general24/grand.htm
Re: Normandy. I have been there many years ago. Places to visit could include the following. To get about it would be best to hire a car because the battle area stretches about 50 miles (80 km) east to west and 10-20 miles in land. You will need a full two days, I would suggest, at a minimum and an early start each day! 3 days would be needed if you decided to include Caen and Bayeux - see below.
St. Mere Eglise, mentioned in BoB, p 80.
The Major and the soldier from A Company, Pte. John D. Hall, killed at Brecourt Manor, landed near there. It is a very picturesque town with a museum. The church steeple is very prominent. Pte. John Steele, 505th PIR, 82nd Airborne, was caught by his parachute there and left hanging for several hours. He survived by feigning death. The 505th's official record recalls that 12 men from F Company, 2nd Battalion dropped into the square and were immediately killed or captured by the Germans. The CO of the 505th said that "one of the chaplains of the regiment, who dropped in St. Mere Eglise was captured and executed within minutes". See "The Longest Day", Cornelius Ryan, p 114ff.
Utah Beach. The westernmost landing area. Bunkers and vehicles are preserved here.
Omaha Beach and the cemetary. General Roosevelt, the President's nephew (?), commanding the 4th US Division at Utah Beach, is buried there. His grave has a gold star insert indicating that he won the Medal of Honour. (Cemeteries of WW1 and 2 reflect national characteristics. This is worth noting. The Americans seek to honour the memory of the war dead. They have polished marble crosses and soaring marble monuments. The British CWGC tries to recreate the tranquility of the English country garden. It uses marble headstones, which have the advantage of allowing a lot of information to be included, with even a message from the family, if possible, e.g "On eternal camping grounds, their silent tents are spread". The Germans (partly because formerly occupied countries are reluctant to yield burial turf to an invader) emphasise comradeship in death and the sombreness of death, so that only planted oaks are grown in the cemeteries and the grave plaques and monuments are dark coloured. They thus have many mass graves (apart from the one at Isselsteyn, which consists of a mind-numbing number of 20,000 individual black crosses).
Point Du Hoc. The US 2nd Ranger Battalion captured an important gun emplacement here on D-Day. They had to scale cliffs by means of grappling hooks and lines. Craters gouged out by 8" shells during the pre-dawn bombardment are still visible (or were 20 years ago!).
Arromanches. This was the junction of the US and British beaches and the objective of 30 Corps, British 2nd Army, on D-Day. The main museum is here.
Pegasus Bridge, near Benouville, captured on D-Day by the 2nd Battalion Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, 6th Airborne Division, under Major John Howard. See Mr. Ambrose's book of this name. The bridge has been moved from its original position.
The Merville Battery, on the east side of the Orne River, captured on D-Day by 9th Para Battalion, 6th Airborne Division, under the command of Lt. Colonel Terence Otway, Ryan p 106ff.
Bayeux, for the tapestry if you can manage it and Caen, "The Anvil of Victory" as one author put it. He was Alexander McKie, a survivor of Normandy. William the Conqueror is buried in the Abbey of St. Etienne in Caen. This inspired McKie (I think) to write the following, which not only encapsulated the battle but also the 'special relationship' personified in BoB but also special between the US and Britain:
"William, we did not come to take you back
Having forgotten you were here; unaware
Disturbed your dust and sent
The evil smoke shouting in the air
Since then -
We have surged across the world,
And now return
To wake you with the torrent of our guns;
To claim your dust within the Abbey,
Long within the Abbey,
With the dark blood of our sons"
(I think it means that since William had claimed Britain by force of arms, the descendants of the Normans, Celts and Anglo-Saxons etc. were now claiming Normandy - and William - in return, having paid a price in blood as William had done at Hastings. I've been trying to fathom it out for about 30 years.)
Falaise, which became a killing ground for the German Army during the breakout in August 1944. "Nowhere appeared capable of hiding this army in retreat, no wood was thick enough to escape the incessant pounding from bomb and cannon shell...the photographs in this book do not do justice to the enormity of the scene" Peter Knight, "The 59th Division, Its War Story". See also McKie, p 370ff.
Ouistreham, at the mouth of the Orne River. This is the eastern extreme of Sword Beach and there is a memorial to the British 3rd Division here.
You can get more info. from this excellent site.
http://www.battletours.co.uk/frames.htm
Besides the actual sites, try to get a feeling for the Normandy countryside, the bocage, the hedgerows and the orchards, which so influenced the battle and its aftermath. (This was done very well in Ep's 2 and 3, BoB.) As a tank commander, Bill Croft said "You didn't look AT the hedges, you looked INTO them...sometimes the A/T gunners fired at you from in front, sometimes they'd let you get 400 yards up the road and hit you up the backside...we lost a lot of the lads wounded in the fields or the orchards, they'd fall into the long grass and you couldn't see them...I remember the day I was promoted to Warrant Officer in charge of supply, it was a day of rejoicing for me. I went back to B Echelon and slept for 36 hours."
Did I mention about the book on the British Airborne which a young lady at work is kindly converting into a WORD file? I have drafted out an introduction which might be of interest, which I can send you OL as an attachment.
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." - Prime Minister Winston Churchill, from Wild Bill’s website: http://www.wildbillguarnere.com/index2.php
Best regards
Alan O'R
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (131.174.244.2) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 03:36 am: |
hi alan
sorry only a short message today. i haven't been here for a few days and am quite busy. only 5 more weeks untill the summerbreak!
it is too bad your colleague will not get a pc untill hie retirement. he could be one of those men we talked about earlier; you know the people that keep the stories of WW2 alive. although he hasn't experienced it himself, with his dad being a medic and his uncle getting killed, he probably has some interesting stories to tell...
yes of course i have seen the 'Nijmegen March' (which is called 'Vierdaagse' in Dutch which stands for the four days of walking). the finish at the St. Annastreet is round around the corner and though it is still 2 months away i'm already looking forward to it! it is always such a great event and the atmosphere in the city is just great. people from all over the world participate in it. many, many soldiers from canada, the US, the UK, etc. all the singing you hear is great. did you know the soldiers are not allowed to march when they are crossing a bridge? the resonance (? do you use that word, i hope you know what i mean) might cause the bridge to collapse...
also after the first day of walking there is a great fireworks over the Waalriver and the Waalbridge. such a lovely site to see! i hope the weather is going to be good.
wow the story about Arnhem and those people taking cover behind a pillar for a whole night is impressive! i haven't been to Arnhem for a few weeks, but i might go next week.
did you know that the Dutch translation for 'a bridge to far' is 'een brug te ver'? actually the bridge is known as 'een brug te verf' (notice the f at the end) right now, which means they're giving it a fresh paint. it must sound weird to you in english but in dutch it sounds quite funny! it is a good thing they're painting it agian because it was in kind of a bad state for a while. and it also has the people talking about the bridge again; it is such a famous bridge and the events that happened there in WW2 may not be forgotten.
mmmm i see you really have a strong opinion about the events that are taking place at the Continent right now. yes i agree in many countries (france, UK, germany, italy, austria, belgium, holland) politics is making a shift to the right, but i really think a 4th reich is overdoing it. are many americans feeling the way you do? i just don't think the people here would take it if it got too far. to 'establish' a 4th reich there have to be many problems in a country (poverty, desillusion, defeat) and those factors just don't seem to be found here. so i am not afraid we are turning in some dictator-ruled-nation.
thanks so much for all the normandy-info! i read everything of course and will print it out to keep it with me when we are making our final plans! we don't have enough time to do EVERYTHING, i am afraid. we're going to 2 or 3 different 'sites'. i'll be going back in a few years anyway since i really want to do a tour and see more. but we don't have the time this year, unfortunately.
oh i have to go now. i am very interested in the book you mentioned from which you were able to send me a draft. to send it OL, do you need my emailadres or anything?
for now; goodbye
irene
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 06:29 pm: |
Hi Irene
As usual, your extensive reply is much appreciated. I will send the attachment OL. You are right about my office colleague - he just doesn't want to spend the money yet getting a PC! (He also likes watching Ray Mears on survival.)
Thanks for the news about the Arnhem Bridge and one hopes that it will rekindle the memory of the war and what it was all about. I remember coming away from the life size display of the casualty clearing station in the basement of the Hartenstein Hotel in 1981, feeling quite upset. A Dutch gentleman on the tour with us, who was a teenager in 1944 and saw the paratroop drop near Arnhem said "you should be upset. Now you know why we hate the [enemy]".
Re the EU, just briefly, the blueprint for present EU was set out in 1942 (even while Easy was in training) by 'Hangman' Heydrich and coincided with a similar document called EUropaische WirtschaftGemeinschaft [EUropean
Economic Community] published by Reichs Minister Funk in Berlin in 1942. That is why I think of it as the 4th Reich in the making.
Re: Normandy, it might be best with the shortness of time, to concentrate on the American sector, since you do plan to visit Carentin. (I neglected to mention St. Lo, which was also a key American objective and bitterly contested. As one battle-weary GI is reported to have said, "The Krauts ain't got much, but they sure as hell know how to use it!")
Best regards
Alan
| By irene vrinte (Gijoe) (131.174.244.2) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 04:32 am: |
hi alan
i just send you a short email but i'd like to reply to your last message too. i have never taken that tour you were talking about. i'll see if i can still take it today...?!
and that guy saying 'now you know why we hate the [enemy]'...mmm yes i understand that. even in 2002, many, many people over here (and not only those who lived during WW2) have a strong opinion about the German people. it doesn't make any sense i know, but with all the stories and tv-series and films and all it is almost impossible to not think of them as the very Creators of Evil. i guess that must be quite frustrating for the youth of Germany. i know i wouldn't like to be looked upon like that, if i were from Germany and didn't even live during WW2!
mmm your post already explains some things about those pamflets. i cannot help having a weird feeling when i read them and i totally don't understand where it all comes from! you've got me scared...are you really suggesting that the original plans for the EU came from people who 'invented' and set up Hitler's 3rd Reich? i find that hard to believe and i am sure there aren't many people to be found in Europe who will agree with you on that matter!
i'm looking forward to hearing from you again about that subject, though...!
yes we really do have to plan things carefully for our trip to Normandy. We were already thinking of only concentrating on the American sector. did you see Saving Private Ryan? at the beginning and at the end of the film, old James Ryan is at a cemetery. would you perhaps know if that is the one in Colleville-sur-Mer?
regards,
irene
ps
did you see the images of president Bush visiting Berlin yesterday? he's got the city going crazy, i'll tell you. the city hasn't had so much police on the street since the end of WW2, i believe (which i don't really understand as Kennedy back in...1961/1962 (?) probably had to be protected too). a lot of (leftwing) demonstrators have made it very clear they do not agree with his statements on the protection of the environment and the situation in the Middle East.
what's your opinion on it and on Bush as your president? with all the talking about Europe, may i say that Gore would have definately been my president of choice?
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 06:08 pm: |
Hi Irene
I hope that you can arrange for a tour around Oosterbeek and the Hartenstein Hotel. I recall there were many other reminders of the battle. In the 1980's Ginkel Heide was still open field, where 4th Para Brigade landed on Sept. 18th. (Renkum Heath, or Heelsum, where the landings by 1st Para Brigade took place on Sept. 17th., is built on.) One can also find the path that the survivors used to get to the Neder Rijn for the main evacuation. There is also the cemetery at Oosterbeek. 3 Arnhem VC's are buried there, Captain Queripel, 10th Para, Lieutenant Grayburn, 2nd Para, Flying Officer Lord, RAF Transport Command and two twin brothers from 2nd Para, surnamed Gronnet.
Re Germany, I suspect the distrust had been there a long time, e.g. even before the time of Bismarck. WW2 made a bad situation worse.
Re the EU, hope the posting OL answers some of your concerns - quite happy OL to address any more that occur to you. As I said, be informed rather than scared - maybe you and some of your colleagues can set up a 'network oranje' like 'Radio Oranje' during the war - we in this country (and across the pond) still owe a great debt to your William, 'King Billy' as he was known. (I understand that the first signatory of the Declaration of Independence was an Ulsterman.)
I haven't seen 'Private Ryan' unfortunately - real name Fritz Niland, I believe, from BoB but a friend of our David's has the music score on CD and enjoyed listening to the BoB theme. Both David and she belong to the Tees Valley Youth Orchestra and I believe it would be a great project for them to do their own recital of the BoB soundtrack. (They can apparently take care of copyright restrictions etc.) Samantha said that the main theme (apart fom the vocals) appeared to be a blend of stringed and woodwind instruments, played as a 'chamber' orchestra. She did not seem to think it would be difficult to reproduce. (David seemed less enthusiastic but he puts a damper on most of my suggestions.) I don't recognise the name of the cemetery, unfortunately but "sur Mer" suggests it is near the sea, so it may be the one near Omaha.
Re George Bush - I'm Australian living in England actually but I would say it took courage to go against the media on these pronouncements of his. (The CO2 greenhouse effect is a scam btw - can give you a very good site on that if you are interested. The ME is more complex but whenever you hear or see criticism of GWB for any support of Israel, I suggest always think of Ross McCall's portrayal of Liebgott at the camp in Ep. 9 and the term 'Judenrein' - Jew free. Remember also the Major's sombre statement to Captain Nixon - "they're finding camps like this all over Germany" and note that the issues have not gone away. BoB helped to bring them into focus. The message of "Why We Fight" should not be left in 1945.) Beyond that, it is difficult to assess, except that President of the USA must be the most difficult job in the world and amply bears out Major Winters' observation that "the hardest thing in peace-time is to be fair". However, I wouldn't trust Al Gore, who is a globalist, environmentalist New Ager. See "Goddess Earth" by Samantha Smith, Huntington House Publishers, 1994. She describes how the Nazi Party was one of the first 'Green' parties - because the Nazi leaders were imbued with Saxon/Nordic mythology centred on the oak tree and druidism - among other ideologies. "Druid" means "oak man" apparently. Hermann Goering, for example, was the archetypal 'Jagersmann' or hunter. Thus Ep. 10 of BoB comes immediately into focus. The chateau that the boys raided in the Bavarian Alps had more than recreational and "weekend away" significance.
Thus w.r.t. Gore and the EU, "what goes around comes around" I guess, or as a certain distinguished Irishman once observed:
"The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlamp of the on-coming train..."
I'm sure that with his background and insights etc., the Major realised all this and I only wish he'd write it up and publish it in some way.
Regards
Alan
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 02:00 pm: |
I have inserted this item here because I think "Taps" is an appropriate heading and hope readers will agree.
As an Australian, I regret not having researched my country's military tradition much more thoroughly. Her veterans are sadly also passing away. (My uncle is the last known living survivor of his HQ unit which was captured at the fall of Singapore in 1942.) However, there is another news item from Aust., which I think is timely. Last Thursday, May 23rd, the last known Australian survivor of the Gallipoli campaign passed away. He was Alec Campbell and he died aged 103. He is believed to have been the last survivor of the campaign in the world. (The landings on the Gallipoli peninsula on April 25th 1915 were intended to outflank the stalemate on the Western Front, knock Turkey out of the war and bring relief to Russia. After 9 months of bloody but indecisive battles, the survivors were evacuated in January 1916. Ironically, the evacuation was about the only part of the campaign that went right for the allies. An Australian soldier, marching to the evacuation beach past the graves of friends said to his officer "I hope they won't hear us going..." About 500,000 men were engaged on both sides and about 50% became casualties. 60,000 Australians and New Zealanders fought at Gallipoli, 7,000 were killed and 26,000 wounded. These were devastating losses for these young nations.)
Recalling his experiences just before he died, Alec Campbell said "It was necessary to put my age up if I wanted to go and everyone was going. A lot of us went and a lot didn't come back. You don't look for reasons". He joined up aged 16 years and four months. One of his contemporaries, Roy Longmore, who had survived Gallipoli and died in June 2001, aged 102, had said "Don't call us heroes. We just did what we were told".
Amazingly, there are still 8 known Australian survivors of the Great War who fought in France, Flanders or the Middle East after Gallipoli. 3 others served in the Royal Australian Navy and another 5 enlisted but did not see action. Their ages range from 103 to an incredible 111. One of them, Ted Smout, was a medic on the Western Front from 1916-1918, where nearly 49,000 Australians and New Zealanders died. He wants to "stick around". "I am 104 and I am in pretty good health" he is reported to have said. More power to him!
Regards
Alan O'R
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 01:31 pm: |
Dear All
I draw attention to a book entitled "With the Old Breed", by Eugene B. Sledge.
It is available from amazon.com and the ISBN is 0 19 506714 2. The author recounts his experiences in combat during 1944-5 on Peleliu and Okinawa, while serving as a PFC in Company K, 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines of the 1st Marine Division. He was about 20 years old at the time. I first became aware of his existence when he was interviewed for a documentary series entitled "Hell in the Pacific". (The well-known actor Rod Steiger was also interviewed, having seen considerable action while serving with the US Navy in the Pacific.)
What struck me about Professor Sledge's book - he retired some years ago from the faculty at Montevallo University, Alabama - were the vivid similarities with some of the key themes of BoB, which is why I draw attention to it. I guess you can tease them out.
"No matter how bad a situation was in the company, it was still home to me. It was not just a lettered company in a numbered battalion in a numbered regiment in a numbered division. It meant far more than that. It was home; it was "my" company. I belonged in it and nowhere else".
"Never in my wildest imagination had I contemplated Captain Haldane's death...somehow I assumed [he] was immortal. Our company commander represented stability and direction in a world of violence, death, and destruction. Now his life had been snuffed out. We felt forlorn and lost. It was the worst grief I endured during the war. The intervening [30] years have not lessened it any. I was stunned and sickened. Throwing my ammo bag down, I turned away from the others, sat on my helmet, and sobbed quietly".
"While I cut away the bloody dungaree sleeve from the injured arm with my knife, 'Doc' Caswell began to tend the wound...the other Marine placed his knife under the injured man's pack strap and gave a violent upward jerk to cut away the shoulder pack. The razor sharp blade sliced through the thick web pack strap but...cut Doc in the face to the bone. Despite considerable pain, Doc kept at his work. In a quiet calm voice he told me to get a battle dressing out of his pouch and press it firmly against his face to stop the bleeding while he finished work on the wounded arm. Such was the selfless dedication of the Navy hospital corpsmen who served in Marine infantry units. It was little wonder that we held them in such high esteem. Doc later got his face tended and was back...in a matter of a few hours".
'Doc' Caswell figures in another incident that revealed the brutalising influence of war. Callousness toward the enemy was commonplace on the Russian front and in the war between the Wehrmacht and the Partisans in Yugoslavia. In the Pacific it manifested itself with souvenir hunting, especially when it was found that many Japanese had gold fillings. Interviewed for "Hell in the Pacific" Eugene Sledge recalled (something like this):
"Doc Caswell saw me with my knife and asked, 'What'y doin', Sledge?' I said 'I'm gonna get me some gold teeth, Doc'. He said 'I don't think y'oughta do that, Sledge, what about the germs?' I answered 'a lot of the other guys are gettin' 'em'. So he asked 'What about your parents, what would they think?' I said 'Well, my dad's a doctor, I think he'd be fascinated. Guess my mom'd be pretty horrified, though...' Finally he said, 'Well, Sledgehammer, I just don't think y'oughta do it!' I said 'I guess you're right, Doc'. I could see what Doc was trying to do, he was trying help me hang onto some decency - not that my buddies were indecent, but I never did collect any gold teeth. Some of my buddies did. They cringe now..."
The WW2 generation who went to "the sharp end" went down into a pit. This should never be forgotten. Eugene "Sledgehammer" Sledge again:
"To those who entered the meat grinder itself, the war was a nether world of horror from which escape seemed less and less likely as casualties mounted and the fighting dragged on and on. Time had no meaning; life had no meaning. The fierce struggle for survival in the abyss...eroded the veneer of civilization and made savages of us all".
Alan O'R
| By Chris Langlois (Chrisdfw) (12.239.86.117) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 12:15 pm: |
Along the same lines....from the HBO board....
ORIGIN OF THE HAND SALUTE
No one knows the precise origin of today’s hand salute. From earliest times and in many distant armies throughout history, the right hand (or "weapon hand") has been raised as a greeting of friendship. The idea may have been to show that you weren't ready to use a rock or other weapon. Courtesy required that the inferior make the gesture first. Certainly there is some connection between this old gesture and our present salute.
One romantic legend has it that today’s military salute descended from the medieval knight's gesture of raising his visor to reveal his identity as a courtesy on the approach of a superior. Another even more fantastic version is that it symbolizes a knight's shielding his eyes from the dazzling beauty of some high-born lady sitting in the bleachers of the tournament.
The military salute has in fact had many different forms over the centuries. At one time it was rendered with both hands! In old prints one may see left-handed salutes. In some instances the salute was rendered by lowering the saber with one hand and touching the cap visor with the other.
The following explanation of the origin of the hand salute is perhaps closest to the truth: It was a long-established military custom for juniors to remove their headgear in the presence of superiors. In the British Army as late as the American Revolution a soldier saluted bv removing his hat. But with the advent of more cumbersome headgear in the 18th and 19th centuries, the act of removing one’s hat was gradually converted into the simpler gesture of grasping the visor, and issuing a courteous salutation. From there it finally became conventionalized into something resembling our modern hand salute.
As early as 1745 (more than two-and-a-half centuries ago) a British order book states that: "The men are ordered not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or to speak to them, but only to clap up their hands to their hats and bow as they pass."
Whatever the actual origin of today’s hand salute, clearly in the tradition of the US Army it has always been used to indicate a sign of RESPECT – further recognition that in the profession of arms military courtesy is both a right and a responsibility of every soldier.
Compiled by the
U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps Historian
Fort Lee, Virginia
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 05:49 pm: |
Dear All
Much to reflect on in your recent posts
I found some insightful quotes, many from combat veterans, to which I draw attention, from what seemed an unlikely source at first - the "Murphy Laws Site", check for it on your browser (or mail me OL). To begin:
"The following article was excerpted from The Desert Wings
March 3, 1978
by the AFFTC History Office
Murphy's Law ("If anything can go wrong, it will") was born here (Edwards Air Force Base) – in 1949 at North Base.
It was named after Capt. Edward A. Murphy, an engineer working on Air Force Project MX981, (a project) designed to see how much sudden deceleration a person can stand in a crash.
One day, after finding that a transducer was wired wrong, he cursed the technician responsible and said, "If there is any way to do it wrong, he'll find it."
The contractor's project manager kept a list of "laws" and added this one, which he called Murphy's Law."
Here is a selection of "Murphy's War Laws". They seem to contain the kind of sardonic humour for which front line troops are known.
Friendly fire - isn't.
You are not Superman; Marines and fighter pilots take note.
A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.
Try to look unimportant; the enemy may be low on ammo and not want to waste a bullet on you.
If at first you don't succeed, call in an air strike.
("I have seen battleships, cruisers, destroyers, superheavies, mediums, heavy AA, light AA and field guns all pour shells as hard as they can into one field for five minutes...first you have an ordinary field, maybe full of Jerry dugouts and lined with Tigers; you look at your watch and for Time on Target; a roar and the area boils for half a minute; after that...you proceed on your way. You don't, of course, go across it, as all it consists of is several feet of loose earth" Caen, The Anvil of Victory, Alexander McKie, Pan 1966, p 355
Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than yourself.
Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.
The enemy invariably attacks on two occasions:
1. when they're ready.
2. when you're not.
("Git thar furstest with the mostest" Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest)
Five second fuses always burn three seconds.
Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
Never draw fire; it irritates everyone around you.
If you are short of everything but the enemy, you are in the combat zone.
(Ep. 6, 7 BoB especially!)
When you have secured the area, make sure the enemy knows it too.
(Ep. 7 BoB - snipers in Foy)
Incoming fire has the right of way.
(Ep. 2-8 BoB!)
If the enemy is within range, so are you.
Tracers work both ways.
If you take more than your fair share of objectives, you will get more than your fair share of objectives to take.
(Ep. 7, BoB, after the capture of Foy...)
Weather ain't neutral.
If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed toward you.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.
Field experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
No matter which way you have to march, it's always uphill.
If enough data is collected, a board of inquiry can prove anything.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism. (in boot camp)
(Ep. 1, BoB, Captain Sobel!)
Air strikes always overshoot the target, artillery always falls short.
(Arnhem an example of the former, many examples of both in Normandy)
General Whoozis' last words (as his aides tried to get him to get his head down): "Oh, don't be silly! They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist- --"
Thousands of Veterans earned medals for bravery every day. A few were even awarded.
("It's ironic that the record of our company was so outstanding but that so few individuals were decorated for bravery. Uncommon valor was displayed so often it went largely unnoticed. It was expected." Eugene Sledge, ex USMC "With the Old Breed" - and with an obvious resonance with Easy Company. I emailed the University of Montevallo, Ala., where Prof. Sledge taught for many years and received this poignant reply:
"Dear Mr. O'Reilly,
Unfortunately, Dr. Sledge is deceased. He died last fall after a lengthy illness. I know he would have appreciated your kind words about his work. He meant a lot to our University and to the thousands of students he taught over nearly three decades here.
My very best to you.
Cynthia Shackelford"
Like Major Winters, Eugene Sledge made a promise to God about his life after the war if he survived and like the Major he kept it. Good examples to follow.)
Obviously Murphy's War Laws may be a blessing or a curse, depending on which side you are on. Unfortunately, the laws can change sides with alacrity.
But as C. Carwood Lipton said in Ep. 7 "That's the way it was".
Regards
Alan O'R
| By Paul D. Alexander (Paul_Ga) (165.121.50.113) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 12:50 am: |
About the bad language: as Lipton said, the 101st may not have talked like that, but I understand Marines *did*.
I got the feeling from watching Ross McCall as Liebgott in episode 9, that it was probably the first time in his life that Liebgott really felt his "Jewishness", when they found that camp. Had I been a Jewish GI, and participated in the liberation of one of those camps, I might've headed for Palestine after the war and fought in the Israeli War for Independence.
Yours,
Paul
| By alan james o'reilly (Alanor) (62.254.64.5) on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 10:35 am: |
Hi Paul
Difficult to generalise on this - no doubt the pungent Anglo-Saxon epithets have been used for centuries and certainly they were used throughout the forces in WW2. However, it may be that the late Mr. Lipton meant that the words were not as commonplace then as now.
If you get the late Prof. Sledge's book, you will find very little in the way of bad language, though he no doubt wrote with his potential readers in mind.
Times change, of course. General Washington's first official order, July 4th 1775, reads
"The General most earnestly requires and expects a due observance of those articles of war established for the government of the army, which forbid profane cursing, swearing, and drunkenness. And in like manner he requires and and expects of all officers and soldiers, not engaged in actual duty, a punctual attendance on Divine services, to implore the blessing of Heaven upon the means used for our safety and defense".
Regards
Alan O'R
| By caygzqzuxdg (203.126.25.170) on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 09:05 am: |